Home Forums Gallery Members Chatroom Contact Us
Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Team NexGen Forums > General Forums > Hardware Discussion

Notices

Hardware Discussion Talk about the newest of the new, the best of the best. etc...

Reply
 
LinkBack (70) Thread Tools Display Modes
  4 links from elsewhere to this Post. Click to view. #11 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-2007
V2-V3's Avatar
Administrator
Points: 11,461, Level: 70
Points: 11,461, Level: 70 Points: 11,461, Level: 70 Points: 11,461, Level: 70
Level up: 71%, 189 Points needed
Level up: 71% Level up: 71% Level up: 71%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Coeur d' Alene Idaho
Age: 20
Posts: 669
Rep Power: 10
V2-V3 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to V2-V3 Send a message via MSN to V2-V3
Re: World Record "8GHZ Project" USA

Xelmon over at the PDXLAN Forums asked me a very good question, to answer it i jumped in head first to give him a good explanation on LN2 Overclocking.

Please Check out the Wiki Article here: Liquid Nitrogen - Overclocking Wiki



WR Overclocking 101

Xelmon wrote: "I could see voltage limiting, because mobos can only do so much.

The heat, @ -15C though, I really cant see it. Care to explain?"
[edit] Temperature

-15c only feels cold in relation to our normal body temperature, the real point at which something is cold is absolute zero or -273C anything above that is simply heat. and most materials begin to show signs of superconducting properties around absolute zero. superconducting is the ability to transmit large amounts of power at very high voltage with out the risk of burning up the lines or having any migration of the electricity (jumping out of the cable into near by objects)

so the colder you get a CPU in theory the more voltage you can pump into it with minimal damage to the circuits.

for example if you were to apply 1.9 Volts to a CPU (lets say a P4 631) with stock cooling the CPU would overheat very fast by overcoming the thermal capacity of the stock cooler. your CPU has a device in it (a thermal couple or diode) that will sense when the core temperature exceeds its safe zone (about +100C) this will tell the CPU to shut down in order to prevent fatal damage.

So why not put a really big copper cooler of dewm on it and pump 1.9 Volts through her?

If you manage to keep the CPU below its thermal threshold using water cooling or Air (lets say we have her at 1.9 Volts and its a nice 30C) an evil bugger known as Electron Migration will come into play.
[edit] Electron Migration

is something Chip manufacturers have been battling since the dawn of time. When you have a very small and very complex electrical component such as a CPU both heat and voltage are directly responsible for instability and damage to the component.

When we look a the very inner working of a CPU it is similar to the traces of a motherboard but on a Scale of (lets stick with the 631) 65nm meaning the transistors that open and close billions of times per second in effect computing lines of code (so you can have your Uber Interweb and... stuff) are actually "65 Nano Meters" wide! this means really really small. well because they are so small there is also not much distance between the "traces" and transistors.
[edit] Thermal Electrical Resistance

When you heat something up you are in effect adding to (in this case) the electrical resistance (meaning electricity has to push harder to get to the other side) so when we think of a CPU if you were at a theoretical (lets forget "minimal kinetic energy" for a moment) absolute zero (-273c) electricity would have no problem moving through the "maze of traces" in a CPU and if we were at say +100C electricity would have to work a lot harder to make it through the "maze".

With electricity being the lazy ass it is, its always looking for the easy way out. (remember those two words Electron Migration?) If two traces are very close to each other in the core of a CPU and one is in essence "Closer to the maze exit" and Mr. electricity is working his ass off to run through at +100C he will simply cheat and migrate (Jump) over the insulator (wall) to the other trace this causes the CPU to destabilize resulting in a flawed computation ending in a blue screen or shutdown.

Imagine there are hundreds of millions of transistors in a CPU core that is about 1x1cm x 1mm thick and when the migration starts there are usually thousands jumping over causing fatal errors and extreme instability.

The damage electron migration can cause is the death of your CPU or a permanent return of corrupted information. This happens when a Higher voltage trace jumps into a near by lower voltage zone due to its lower electrical resistance and the result is a fried portion of the chip rendering it useless...
[edit] Hardware

If we want to say make our CPU (631) run at 8GHZ we have to take into account every thing listed above and a few more things like our budget Sad !st off we know we need to keep it cool, so we get a nice Team NexGen Rev 2.5 Copper Liquid Nitrogen Pot and a frosty 160L Dewar of LN2 from the local A-L compressed gas company. we solve the problem of water condensation with nice Neoprene tape and heating elements. We have a good ole NexGen Full modded ASUS COMMANDO board capable of supplying more voltage than needed. we have a CPU that is a good steeping and can take us to 8GHZ and the Micron D9GKX that can handle at least 1200MHZ at 4-4-4-12 @ 2.7V we have a nice PSU that can push 800W of clean power. a crappy GPU that is PCI (less stress on the FSB) and pulls minimal power from the board.

so now we know why we need the CPU cold but we don't know why we need the extra voltage
[edit] Voltage

The CPU speed is a Frequency! measured in Hz, or kHz (kilohertz, 10^3 Hz), MHz (megahertz, 10^6 Hz), GHz (gigahertz, 10^9 Hz) & THz (terahertz, 10^12 Hz) (thanks wiki). (Hertz not the car place, but rather cycles per second) now in order to have a CPU operate at a frequency and be stable enough for use we have to match a voltage (voltage is acts as the stabilizer for the CPU speed) to carry the signal through the CPU and successfully compute and output information. Intel does a good job of this when developing faster chips they spend a great deal of resources finding the optimal voltage for a set frequency by testing possible environmental temperatures (home, office, server room....) so if we are to increase the frequency of a CPU we need to in crease the voltage to stabilize the faster signal but with the increase in voltage we have an increase of heat in the CPU and heat will destabilize the CPU with electron migration. when you double the Voltage of a CPU you quadruple the heat generated.

This is where the LN2 comes into play, If we want a speed of 8GHz or 266% of the stock 3GHz we need a lot of voltage. and to prevent the CPU from heating up and causing electron migration we cool it to about -150c (LN2 is -196c) this allows the CPU to operate with less electrical resistance and hopefully prevent migration when running such a high voltage like 1.9 Volts.


The colder you can get the CPU the more voltage it can take allowing a higher clock frequency.
__________________
"If It Don't Overclock Its Broken"

Folding@Home Team NexGen #54168
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 06-14-2007
Private First Class
Points: 807, Level: 15
Points: 807, Level: 15 Points: 807, Level: 15 Points: 807, Level: 15
Level up: 16%, 93 Points needed
Level up: 16% Level up: 16% Level up: 16%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Age: 30
Posts: 12
Rep Power: 0
dekard is on a distinguished road
Re: World Record "8GHZ Project" USA

Great work in here. I'm heading to my blog to throw a post up for you guys.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 06-14-2007
V2-V3's Avatar
Administrator
Points: 11,461, Level: 70
Points: 11,461, Level: 70 Points: 11,461, Level: 70 Points: 11,461, Level: 70
Level up: 71%, 189 Points needed
Level up: 71% Level up: 71% Level up: 71%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Coeur d' Alene Idaho
Age: 20
Posts: 669
Rep Power: 10
V2-V3 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to V2-V3 Send a message via MSN to V2-V3
Re: World Record "8GHZ Project" USA

Alright! im going to take the time this weekend to start some more OCWiki articles, and update existing ones
__________________
"If It Don't Overclock Its Broken"

Folding@Home Team NexGen #54168
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 06-14-2007
Private First Class
Points: 807, Level: 15
Points: 807, Level: 15 Points: 807, Level: 15 Points: 807, Level: 15
Level up: 16%, 93 Points needed
Level up: 16% Level up: 16% Level up: 16%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Age: 30
Posts: 12
Rep Power: 0
dekard is on a distinguished road
Re: World Record "8GHZ Project" USA

V2, thanks a ton for the help on the wiki. I can't tell you how great it is to have support from someone who knows overclocking so well.

Since I put that article up showing off the 8 ghz project its gotten Dugg quite a bit. Maybe if the guys here show Digg a little love and maybe send it to a couple of friends we'll see the front page and blow the doors off of Team NexGen's servers.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2007
V2-V3's Avatar
Administrator
Points: 11,461, Level: 70
Points: 11,461, Level: 70 Points: 11,461, Level: 70 Points: 11,461, Level: 70
Level up: 71%, 189 Points needed
Level up: 71% Level up: 71% Level up: 71%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Coeur d' Alene Idaho
Age: 20
Posts: 669
Rep Power: 10
V2-V3 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to V2-V3 Send a message via MSN to V2-V3
Re: World Record "8GHZ Project" USA

To solve our problems of acquiring a rental dewar we have decided it was in our best interest to take action!


The Most important Drink on earth, It give us the drive to work late into the night!


And the all important food mmmm!


The tools at hand


Voyager welding away


Side view of weld


Bottom View of weld


Voyager welding in action


Ende providing his unwaivering support.


Ground clamp for wire feed welding


Voyager AKA Justin


Welding inside... not such a good idea.


Time to replace the wire spool.


Side view of initial weld


Close up view


The bottom plate about to be welded.


Grinding the top after we cut the tube


Top view of Dewar tube


Action shot


Like the Sparkz?


They look like they were made for each other.


Job well.... almost done.
__________________
"If It Don't Overclock Its Broken"

Folding@Home Team NexGen #54168

Last edited by V2-V3; 06-16-2007 at 05:24 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2007
Private First Class
Points: 807, Level: 15
Points: 807, Level: 15 Points: 807, Level: 15 Points: 807, Level: 15
Level up: 16%, 93 Points needed
Level up: 16% Level up: 16% Level up: 16%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Age: 30
Posts: 12
Rep Power: 0
dekard is on a distinguished road
Re: World Record "8GHZ Project" USA

Good work guys...
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2007
V2-V3's Avatar
Administrator
Points: 11,461, Level: 70
Points: 11,461, Level: 70 Points: 11,461, Level: 70 Points: 11,461, Level: 70
Level up: 71%, 189 Points needed
Level up: 71% Level up: 71% Level up: 71%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Coeur d' Alene Idaho
Age: 20
Posts: 669
Rep Power: 10
V2-V3 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to V2-V3 Send a message via MSN to V2-V3
Re: World Record "8GHZ Project" USA

Got a little more progress on the Dewar


Using Lincoln electric Wire feed welder

Night shot of Weld in progress

Look at those Sparks

Ground the slag off the bottom

Side view of dewar tube before weld

Grinding the edges down, checking for cracks and prepping for another weld
__________________
"If It Don't Overclock Its Broken"

Folding@Home Team NexGen #54168
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2007
V2-V3's Avatar
Administrator
Points: 11,461, Level: 70
Points: 11,461, Level: 70 Points: 11,461, Level: 70 Points: 11,461, Level: 70
Level up: 71%, 189 Points needed
Level up: 71% Level up: 71% Level up: 71%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Coeur d' Alene Idaho
Age: 20
Posts: 669
Rep Power: 10
V2-V3 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to V2-V3 Send a message via MSN to V2-V3
Re: World Record "8GHZ Project" USA

Finally we acquired some LN2 for benching our Pentium 4 631 CPU, with the help of Liquid Nitrogen and some Koolance water blocks we will crush our previous validation record of 6.3GHz

Overclocking Setup:
P4 631
ASUS COMMANDO
1GB Corsair 8500C5 1066MHz
Connect 3D X1650XT
Koolance Liquid Cooled 1200W Power Supply
NexGen Rev 2.5 Copper LN2/DI CPU Container




Check out the video on YouTube
YouTube - Team NexGen Liquid Nitrogen Overclocking Part 1
__________________
"If It Don't Overclock Its Broken"

Folding@Home Team NexGen #54168
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2007
V2-V3's Avatar
Administrator
Points: 11,461, Level: 70
Points: 11,461, Level: 70 Points: 11,461, Level: 70 Points: 11,461, Level: 70
Level up: 71%, 189 Points needed
Level up: 71% Level up: 71% Level up: 71%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Coeur d' Alene Idaho
Age: 20
Posts: 669
Rep Power: 10
V2-V3 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to V2-V3 Send a message via MSN to V2-V3
Update: Team NexGen Takes 2nd place with Celeron 331!

after a few hours of LN2 Benching and 30L later we managed to take second place in the Celeron 331 category with 5946.8 MHz
Looks like we can take this chip 6GHz and beyond but we must wait for a new board to apply 1.8+ Vcore
even with a VCPU and VDroop mod the ASUS COMMANDO board was not taking anything above 1.72Vcore with out mods the max obtainable voltage was 1.544Vcore.....

Bench system:
ASUS COMMANDO
Connect 3D X1650XT
Celeron D 331 @ 2.66GHz
NexGen Rev 2.5 LN2/DI CPU Container
Koolance 1200W Power Supply
Koolance Motherboard Hydra pack